Monday, April 27, 2009

Conflicts of principle, on a regular basis

For the cerebral version, see here.

This is the tachlis (nitty grit practical details) version.

For some of us non-Orthodox Jews, consistency of religious observance can be a lot more difficult when friends or, worse, family are involved.

Item: Years ago, a friend of mine accidentally treifed the synagogue kitchen (made it non-kosher) by using a cooking spray label "dairy" on the parve baking pans (intended for baking cakes containing neither dairy nor meat products). I should have reported the incident. I did not. I just couldn't do it. She was my friend. (For the record, that's one reason why I don't believe in pot-luck meals in a synagogue--there's a reason for having a mashgiach/kashrut supervisor, an independent person who's paid to ensure that the laws of kashrut are followed. A mashgiach doesn't have to worry about what friends he's going to antagonize by enforcing the rules.)

Item: I recently found out that one of my favorites among the baalei tefillah (leaders of religious services) at my current favorite synagogue is (a) intermarried and (b) currently enrolled in cantorial school. Policy question: Should a school for the education of Jewish religious leaders admit persons who are not exactly role models? Personal question: Should I do my best to avoid going to any services led by this individual? (Boycotting a service led by one of the finest singers in the synagogue is a lot to ask of a former synagogue-choir singer.) On the other hand, should I reject someone who's still a Jew, albeit one who's violated a major prohibition? What if my son intermarries? I have no intention of sitting shiva, but how would I handle a non-Jewish daughter (and grandchildren, if any)?

Item: We can either take the train to a friend's house for a seder, or we can walk a few blocks to a seder made by another friend who doesn't keep kosher. Either way, we're violating halachah/Jewish religious law. And what am I supposed to do when, as has happened a few times in my life, I find out partway through the seder dinner than not all the food is kasher l'Pesach/kosher for Passover--walk out?

Big-ticket item: Speaking of walking out not being the preferred option, to say the least, what if one spouse is more observant than the other? Usually, our policy of mutual non-interference (see the post and comments here) works pretty well, but sometimes . . . Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg married a secular Israeli. How does she manage?

Related: See my previous post.

29 Comments:

Anonymous Too Old to Jewschool Steve said...

Shira, I love watching you struggle. In some ways, your struggle is my (and my family's) struggle, albeit without (what I perceive as) the healthy dose of obsessive/compulsiveness [we save that for other stuff in my house]. Some days, you are what some consider the ideal conservative jew -- trying to integrate halahkah into your daily modern existence in a fashion that makes sense to you. Hence, your desire for consistency. Sometimes, its like watching a train wreck in slow motion -- your fundamental desire for things to be black and white, when they are only gray.

So, here's my suggestion: stop trying to shoehorn your religious identity into a specific jewish denomination. Because, as we've previously discussed, they are meaningless. You are not a "Conservative" jew. You are a Jew who attends/affiliates with a Conservative Synagogue. Unless you plan to become BT, live within an exclusively frum community and subject yourself to the mores and constraints of that community, you are just a Jew. Maybe you go to an Orthodox shul, maybe Conservo, maybe Reform. But you are a Jew. The Rabbi at the shul I usually attend (as opposed to the shul I prefer to attend) recently reviewed a book as his sermon, the name of which escapes me. But the author got passed the issue of denominations by creating two simple categories -- "serious" jews, and all the other ones. You are a Serious Jew. You learn, you observe to your own comfort level and strive to observe more. You appreciate the beauty of your observance, and occasionally obsess about that which you do not yet observe, or perhaps do not observe (by someone else's standard) meticulously.

Once we were freed of the ghetto or the shtetl or the pale, especially here in the Goldene Medina, we were no longer compelled to observe. For the vast majority of western jews, we now observed as a matter of choice. And then, we started choosing, on a person by person or family by family basis, what we would observe. The denominational institutions then sought to conform to these choices. In that respect, the vast majority of us, regardless of the specific congregation at which we pay dues, are reform.

I'll share an observation of my own existence to those of yours. For sixth grade, my younger daughter, at her request, xferred from a (more than adequate, if not excellent) public school system into a schechter school. A year later, as we wind our way through the bar/bat mitzvah cycle of the class, I remain shocked to find my family on the right side of the observance scale within that community. We are not yet shomer shabbat/yomtov, but do attend services generally on those days. We are strictly kosher in our home, and follow the prevailing (and wholly unjustifiable) conservative practice of eating hot dairy/veggie/fish out, when not eating in a kosher establishment. I was astonished to find that only a small minority of families are shomer shabbat, mostly those where one or both parents are rabbis/cantors. Some of them drive on shabbat and yom tov to reach their congregations. I am still shocked by the number of bar/bat mitzvah parties which are treyf. I don't entirely understand why those families send their kids to a jewish day school. But I know that my younger daughter, thrown into a dual curriculum with the benefit of a special mechina program, sucks it all up and seeks to learn even more, and shares it with the rest of us.

Given all this, I've recently come to the conclusion that, much like the customs of our ashkenaz or sephard ancestors, its time to establish "minhag america" and make our own way.

Mon Apr 27, 11:55:00 PM 2009  
Blogger scarlettscion said...

I find the "problem" of whether or not to boycott your baal tefilah--well, let's just say I find it troublesome, as both a convert and someone who almost *was* intermarried.

Yes, intermarriage isn't something we as a community should strive for. But your rabbi, you, and your neighbor are all committing equally grave violations of halacha, nu? So perhaps the old "judge not" should apply here? Especially since you don't seem to boycott your rabbi and his non-certified cakes.

Further--what possible good would boycotting this person do? Are you trying to somehow parody karet via shunning? If so--unless the rest of the community does it, what's the point? If that isn't the point, are you planning on telling her you find her marriage so offensive you don't want to listen to her lead prayers--while you've arguably placed a stumbling block before the blind and forced her to eat non-kosher food?

Tue Apr 28, 11:09:00 AM 2009  
Blogger scarlettscion said...

And as for how you would "handle" a non Jewish daughter in law and grandchildren?

You love, accept, and show them the very best parts of the Judaism that you love, and (perhaps) nudge your son towards having them converted as children.

Look, unless you want to live cut off from the world these days, intermarriage will and does happen. The only way to prevent it on a large scale is to exile from the community anyone who does it (sit shiva like you mentioned). Otherwise--you can't fight it. You will look like a hypocrite and you will lose. You can make it clear via example and gentle encouragement that it is very important to you, but that's all.

My husband's father was very displeased that I was a shiksa, once it became clear that I was more than just a good time girl. His attitude only drove my husband farther away from anything resembling traditional Judaism--especially considering as my father in law doesn't keep kosher, attend shul regularly, or read Hebrew, among other things.


(step off soapbox)

Tue Apr 28, 11:18:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Steve, you said "I am still shocked by the number of bar/bat mitzvah parties which are treyf. I don't entirely understand why those families send their kids to a jewish day school."

Likewise.

"But I know that my younger daughter, thrown into a dual curriculum with the benefit of a special mechina program, sucks it all up and seeks to learn even more, and shares it with the rest of us."

So Serious Jews do well to pay less attention to what everyone else is doing and more to their own wish to be Serious Jews. That's good advice.

Tue Apr 28, 01:19:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"Yes, intermarriage isn't something we as a community should strive for. But your rabbi, you, and your neighbor are all committing equally grave violations of halacha, nu? So perhaps the old "judge not" should apply here."

Point well made, and well taken.

"Further--what possible good would boycotting this person do? Are you trying to somehow parody karet via shunning? If so--unless the rest of the community does it, what's the point?

Good question. A personal boycott wouldn't accomplish anything.

"If that isn't the point, are you planning on telling her you find her marriage so offensive you don't want to listen to her lead prayers--while you've arguably placed a stumbling block before the blind and forced her to eat non-kosher food?"

For the record, my favorite synagogue and the synagogue at which my ex-black-hat rabbi eats the non-kosher cakes are not the same synagogue.

Tue Apr 28, 01:23:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Re intermarriage, my apologies--"handle" was definitely not the best word to use.

"You love, accept, and show them the very best parts of the Judaism that you love, and (perhaps) nudge your son towards having them converted as children."

I agree that that's the best approach, assuming that my son's wife doesn't choose to take the plunge, both figuratively and literally, and convert to Judaism.

Concerning a conversion, as long as she's undergone some serious study, gone before a Bet Din (Jewish religious court) of three rabbis, and immersed in a mikveh (ritual bath), she's Jewish, in my book.

Tue Apr 28, 01:31:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

I'd like to recommend Two Jews Can Still Be a Mixed Marriage by Azriella Jaffe, an Orthodox BT who lives in the same town I do. She did a lot of interviews with spouses of varying observance levels.

My wife and I also had this problem a lot in the beginning. Among the first mitzvot she took on in a really serious way was tzniut (including hair covering), since that was something completely under her control that didn't require any action on my part.

When we started keeping strictly kosher inside and outside the home we had a question about eating at my mom's house. She kept a kosher home her whole life, but she followed the conservative rulings on cheese. My dad was in his final illness at that time as well, which as you can imagine was taking up a lot of her energy.

My chabad rabbi at the time said "You are not going to tell your mother that her dairy dishes, pots, and pans are treif and she needs new ones before you'll eat there. She has quite enough problems already!" So we told her we didn't want to eat cheese lacking in kosher certification ourselves, but we'd still eat there when we visited. On her own she stopped buying uncertified cheeses from that time forward.

Tue Apr 28, 04:11:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Too Old to Jewschool Steve said...

>>So Serious Jews do well to pay less attention to what everyone else is doing and more to their own wish to be Serious Jews. That's good advice.<<

In a nutshell, you got it! And Scarlettscion, wow, she blows me away. She has obviously thought a lot of this stuff through. I wonder if I would feel differently about her if I disagreed with her.

Lets put it this way: you want your personal observance to be accepted. Don't you owe the same kavod to someone else? Clearly, you're intermarried friend is struggling with her own observance issues. Do you "boycott" her, and push her away from the community, or do you honor her decision to participate without judging her shortcomings. As a lawyer, I really do want things to be black and white. I want some absolutes. And maybe we'll all be able to agree on some. But in the meantime, if you're outside of the black hat community, you're going to be forced to do so, or you will eventually run out of shuls.

Tue Apr 28, 05:24:00 PM 2009  
Blogger scarlettscion said...

Shira: Thanks for the response. It's something of a touchy issue on my part.

Larry: that book sounds fantastic--and quite on the nose. I've found it very challenging to deal with the close to open hostility towards ANY observance with many of my in-laws. You'd think my kitchen was a personal affront to their moral code or the like...

Tue Apr 28, 06:35:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Miami Al said...

Someone got us her first book, "What do you mean, you won't eat in our house," which I didn't really connect with, buy my BT story is unusual both in that we adopted the lifestyle instead of learning at Yeshiva first, and went from secular -> Kosher Home partially Shabbat observant -> Shomer Shabbat, Kosher home "dairy out" => Shomer Shabbat, Shomer Kashrut in about 4 years total, not 15... I am curious about her second book, but I really don't connect to her Hassidism BT story, but then I'm MO BT, and the lives in the MO are very different than Hassidic lives.

Regarding Kashrut and "eating in someone's house," if you are Conservative, everything gets painted WAY more black and white than it is (at least what my wife learned growing up). The reason to consult a Rabbi when someone messes up is not to "tattle on them," but because they can give you a lenient opinion that you can't (or wouldn't) give yourself.

The example of dairy cooking spray on parve instruments, the Rabbi could determine if it was Dairy or Dairy equipment, which makes a difference, also if the food was still acceptable (1/60th nullification) and a proper process for re-kashering the instrument to parve if necessary.

Also, regarding the conservative mother's kitchen, my MIL is Kosher Conservative, which I used to have issues eating dairy in her house because she used non-certified cheese and a single dishwasher... I could have raised a stink, but a few things I learned (and where appropriate, used a ruling from the Rabbi)...

Our Rabbi has ruled that while Halacha requires that a person keep kosher to trust their Kashrut (so "eating out" presents a problem), the parental bond creates a situation where you can trust that if they are doing things "for you," you can trust them even if they don't for themselves (by "eating out."). Further, the issue of non-Kosher cheeses isn't really an issue of treif, since the use of a non-Kosher element for making the hard cheese isn't considered meat (it's changed through the process) which is why the Conservative movement permits it... it's not Kashrut, any more than requiring dishes be Toveled is "Kashrut," the issue is that if the cheese is made entirely by non-Jews it is Gevinah Akum (Gentile Cheese), which is Rabbinically prohibited. In addition, cooking instruments "lose the flavor" after 24 hours (hence the 24-hour wait to Kasher), so depending on that, a Rabbi has PLENTY of leeway to rule how the Chabad Rabbi did... The issue of Gevinah Akum prohibits eating the cheese, not the Kelim (vessels) that touch it, we can assume that the Kelim haven't touched it in 24 hours, and the Halacha permits a single dishwasher (bringing a ruling from the Shulchan Aruch about washing meat/dairy kelim in a pot of the other), with Moshe Feinstein ruling that it is preferable to not use it at the same time. Avoiding a dishwasher for both meat and dairy is NOT halacha, but rather a stringency so you don't screw up (using at the same time, or worse, not paying attention and putting the meat/dairy equipment back in the wrong area)... So while your mother (or my mother in law's) practice may not be "acceptable" from a Shomer Kashrut, point of view, it may not be "treif" to prevent me from eating in her house WHEN she does it right for our being there.

These are a mixture of rulings from two local Rabbeim plus some independent learning, and should NOT be relied upon as a halachic ruling. As always, consult your local Rabbi... not an anonymous poster on the Internet. :)

Wed Apr 29, 10:08:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

Shalom Al

Two Jews ... was her first book, and written when she was much less observant than sheis today. What Do You Mean, You Can't Eat in My Home? was written after she affiliated with the local Agudah shul. The family does not think of themselves as Chassidic, but rather as Yeshivish.

Thanks for the analysis supporting my Chabad Rabbi's ruling. He did a wonderful job of bringing along a somewhat reluctant BT. He had a wonderful ability to reach the correct conclusion through a combination of halachic study and a lev tov (good heart). If I tried that, I'd be eating bacon cheeseburgers completely convinced it what was Hashem wanted me to do, but for him it worked.

Wed Apr 29, 11:21:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Sorry I haven't responded to the last few comments, but making a living is interfering with my blogging--it's 9:51 PM and I'm just now ready to leave the office. Under the circumstance, I'll have to be brief.

Lenny, that Chabad rabbi knows from rochmones (mercy).

Steve, you said, "Lets put it this way: you want your personal observance to be accepted. Don't you owe the same kavod to someone else?"

I hadn't looked at it quite that way, but now that you mention it . . .

"Clearly, you're intermarried friend is struggling with her own observance issues. Do you "boycott" her, and push her away from the community, or do you honor her decision to participate without judging her shortcomings."

I guess that, as long as a person still has a foot in the door, it wouldn't be right to slam the door on them.

"But in the meantime, if you're outside of the black hat community, you're going to be forced to do so [be more tolerant], or you will eventually run out of shuls."

I left one already because they started bringing non-Jews into the choir of which I was a member, which was started in the first place because the rabbi wanted only Jews helping to lead the service. At least the cantorial student is Jewish, even if the spouse isn't. So I certainly see what you mean.

"I've found it very challenging to deal with the close to open hostility towards ANY observance with many of my in-laws. You'd think my kitchen was a personal affront to their moral code or the like..." Scarlett, that reminds me of a true story told by a friend of mine who's a Jew by Choice--her mother-in-law was rather upset that my friend was encouraging her Secular-Yiddishist-raised husband to go to synagogue.

Whoa, Al, I gotta read that kashrut comment when I'm awake, since there seem to be a few things there that I don't know. Thanks for the education.

Wed Apr 29, 10:11:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Miami Al said...

Scarlett, "I find the "problem" of whether or not to boycott your baal tefilah--well, let's just say I find it troublesome, as both a convert and someone who almost *was* intermarried."

But there is an actual Halachic component to this, plus a community angle. The Baal Tefilah is praying on behalf of the community, we answer their communal prayers with Amen because they are praying on behalf of the minyan. This is not a simple matter of "boycott," but rather is the person of the proper character to offer communal prayers, and therefore, is their position in that role acceptable.

In addition, the issue of pushing them away is secondary to what is correct for the community. If the community feels that intermarriage is a SERIOUS wrong, then holding them up as the "ideal Jew" as the Baal Tefilah must be (ideal Jew being unfortunately narrowly defined) considered for its impact on the community.

Wanting to retain the intermarried Jew inside the community is a reasonable goal, but also has to be weighed against the goal of encouraging young Jews of the importance of marrying a Jew.

The local Rabbi took the position on a man "living with a gentile" (since obviously we can't recognize their state sanctioned marriage under Torah Law -- it is a prohibited relation) is still allowed to join a minyan, but cannot receive an Aliyah or serve as Baal Tefilah or any other honor. We don't push them away (they are still a Jew), but we don't let them represent the community to honor Torah since that is the role of an Aliyah or Baal Tefilah.

This is obviously more clear cut in the Orthodox world because those honors aren't available to women. The reason this matters is when dealing with an intermarried couple, we have two issues, retaining/punishing the Jewish spouse, and retaining/punishing the children if they are Jewish. An intermarried woman will have Jewish children (if there are any), and we don't want to push her children out of Torah Judaism even if we don't recognize her marriage to their father as Jewish. A egalitarian congregation needs to deal with the fact that any "punishment" will apply to both genders, and pushing a intermarried man away is WAY LESS severe than pushing an intermarried woman away, because the latter means pushing Jewish children away which is unacceptable.

The effectiveness of the "stigma" of intermarriage from the community is certainly debatable, but the intermarriage rates of Orthodox Jews is lower than Conservative and both are lower than Reform, with Orthodoxy attaching a complete stigma and Reform attaching none... Correlation does NOT prove causality, and there are plenty of other reasons that Orthodox intermarriage rates are WAY lower (O -> C is a 10x increase, C->R is only a 50% increase), but the stigma may be part of the issue... an Orthodox Jew that intermarries not only deals with the religious consequences, but their day school alumni newsletter probably won't publish their announcements, the community that they grew up with won't be wishing them a Mazel Tov on the birth of their children, etc. That societal pressure may help prevent intermarriage.

The is a HUGE difference between the family "sitting Shiva" and writing off their children and the community accepting them as Baal Tefilah... the former is heartbreaking for the family, the latter gives honor and recognition to someone that the community officially considers sinful.

Compassion to a congregate that did something wrong is different from holding them up as a role model. We've seen men charged with or convicted of serious crimes being honored in Orthodox shuls, something that would be unlikely in a Conservative/Reform Congregation, simply because the latter attach WAY more of a stigma to that situation... that's one area that I think Orthodoxy does a really bad job of dealing with, we don't ostracize our criminals enough... reaching out for love the Teshuva doesn't mean not condemning their action... a memorial plaque to Bugsy Siegel on a Shul wall seems completely unacceptable to me, yet exists at the Bialystoker Synagogue. Who here thinks that Jack Abramoff will be denied an Aliyah or the ability to serve as Baal Tefilah, despite the Chillul Hashem his crimes created?

Thu Apr 30, 02:57:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

True story: I recently asked our local synagogue's chief maintenance worker/Shabbos goy what the other congregants were saying about my attendance at a different synagogue that's egalitarian (unlike the local one). He replied that they couldn't understand how a "holy roller"--his words--like me could get on the subway on the Sabbath to go to synagogue.

Steve and Al, you sound like the debate in my own mind. Either I respect the observance of others just as I hope that they'll respect my own observance--such as it is--and remain in the Conservative Movement, or I insist on standards and consistency of observance, and move to the Orthodox camp. What can I say? As long as I'm not willing to give up traveling on Shabbat (Sabbath) and Chagim (major holidays), eating (albeit not meat) in non-kosher restaurants, and being a counted and full participant in public worship, I'll just have to put up with my own inconsistencies and those of most Conservative Jews.

Sun May 03, 12:32:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Al, I copied your kashrut comment to the comments section of
this old post. Thanks for the information.

Sun May 03, 12:06:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Too Old to Jewschool Steve said...

Shira --

As I write this, I am sitting in the ground zero of conservative judaism's intellectual center, JTS's library, where my non-day school daughter attends the Sunday Prozdor program. Hanging out here, and the greater Morningside Heights environment always provides an ideal observation point for modern jewry in action. Through this place you see every strain of judaism and every level of observance interact!
Your choice, which I celebrate, is the hard one. You are electing to struggle, internally and externally, with what judaism will be, not what it is right now. This is no small feat, as it is inherently discomforting. And yet, you'll learn so much from the ongoing struggle. I'm one who would much rather have Al's certainty and bright-line tests. But then, what would I say to my magnificent, accomplished, learned and learning daughters, that they shouldn't be seen on a bima, leading a service, leyning or reading a haftarah, as they are fully capable of doing? How do I tell them that they are relegated to the other side of the mechitza, not to be seen nor heard. I know the arguments Al will make; I've studied them to understand the honorable role of women in judaism. But for the most part, they are minhag, not halakha. My girls have been blessed to grow up in an environment and community where no girl ever thinks "I can't be a [your choice of previously exclusively male profession here]". I can't reconcile that with their religious life. I accept that the Torah imposes strict limitations, but the fear of flexibility has cost us so much already, it needs to be abandoned.

Sun May 03, 12:26:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Miami Al said...

TOJS,

You're projecting a lot of bright lines on me, when really it's just cynical observations. I wish I had an answer for more female participation in public services, and I'm intrigued by the efforts of the partnership minyanim. My wife, who grew up right wing conservative, read the Haftorah at her Bat Mizvah, and her sister read Torah (as the community embraced more egalitarianism.
However, until the egalitarian groups show me that you can A) retain men in your community, and B) still encourage motherhood and population growth, I am sad to say that egalitarianism is a failure from a community stand point.
Customs that stand the tests of time are usually grounded in a pragmatic reality. Even when our minhagim are given stupid justifications (honor of the community, or other BS), usually pragmatic economic reality determine what survives and what doesn't, and we leave it to scholars in 2-5 generations to invest a holy sounding justification for it.
Growing up Reform, I read from the Torah for my Bar Mitzvah, but would never leyn again, that's what the Rabbi does. Celebrating becoming a Bar Mitzvah with a Torah Aliyah is appropriate if as an adult that is part of your life, it's stupid to do if you will never do it again.
Further, it is impossible to be Shomer Shabbat, have very small children, and participate in communal prayer. If your expectation of family size is 3-5 children, which is necessary for growth, it is impossible to include women without them losing a large chunk of their 20s and 30s... The net effect is that egalitarianism renders childbirth and nursing small children an impediment to expressive Judaism, while Orthodoxy culturally makes that the primary expression. As a result, Orthodox culture encourages having children, egalitarian culture discourages it.

Judaism that doesn't encourage child birth will suffer a longevity issue. The unfortunate fact is that egalitarianism has adopted secular culture's view of motherhood has something nasty to be hidden (our sexualized culture really struggles with "private parts" existing outside a sexual one), which has pulverized birthrates.

To those of you in the egalitarian movement, prove me wrong. Prove that you can have large families (at least exceeding 2.1 births/woman replacement rates after factoring out intermarriage and childless women) in an egalitarian community and watch it spread like wildfire in the MO world. Our graduate school educated working women would no doubt agitate for improvement, but not look to copy it from dying off movements that simply can't retain their numbers.

The reality is that in a Shomer Shabbat home, someone needs to be home with the children during Shul times, so either one spouse stays home (and if it isn't the wife, you're pulling the men out of their obligatory communal services), or the families go to different minyanim. If husband and wife are going to a different minyan anyway, I fail to see what family seeing does for you.

Go to an Aish Hatorah minyan, the mechitza is usually down the middle, not in the back, it's hit or miss in modern Orthodoxy, but the trend is toward more "men and women's sides," and away from synagogue with women behind the mechitza. However, whenever you are dealing with capital projects, the timeframe for change is pretty long.

Mon May 04, 02:17:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"The reality is that in a Shomer Shabbat home, someone needs to be home with the children during Shul times, so either one spouse stays home (and if it isn't the wife, you're pulling the men out of their obligatory communal services),. . ."

And that, Al, is the crux of the problem, in my egalitarian opinion--halachah/Jewish religious law's insistence that *only* men are obligated to to fulfill time-bound mitzvot/commandments such as praying at specific times means that the women *always* get to stay home with the children while the men always get to go to synagogue. It's no wonder that a man recites a brachah/blessing thanking G-d for not making him a woman--if you had a choice between listening to a drash and listening to a baby cry, a toddler whine, and two older kids argue with each other, which would *you* pick? The only reason why the system works is that Orthodox women have been raised since earliest childhood to believe that dirty diapers are their G-d-given destiny.

As Steve said, "the fear of flexibility has cost us so much already, it needs to be abandoned." Given my choice, this is the way I would love to see halachah/Jewish religious law change to become more flexible:

1) All Jews over the age of Bat or Bar Mitzvah who do not have children, or whose children are over the age of Bat or Bar Mitzvah, would be declared obligated to fulfill all time-bound commandments. A special exemption would be granted to those with serious illnesses and/or disabilities and/or suffering the ravages of age, or to those who are caring for such an individual.

2) All married couples with children under the age of Bat or Bar Mitzvah would literally share the time-bound obligations. One person of either gender would go to synagogue to pray for her/himself and as representative of the family, and that spouse would be counted in a minyan.

I've never forgotten the days when I used to show up for morning minyan on a Sunday--the only day that my husband was available to take care of our then-toddler--and be told by the "minyannaires" to go home and send my husband instead. Why should helping perpetuate the Jewish people by having a baby be punishable by banishment from synagogue?

Tue May 05, 12:36:00 AM 2009  
Anonymous Al said...

Shira, "The only reason why the system works is that Orthodox women have been raised since earliest childhood to believe that dirty diapers are their G-d-given destiny."

That's hogwash and bigoted and you are better than that. The ranks of BTs, men and women, proves that the system doesn't depend on "brainwashed women." Dirty diapers are part of children, and you can't leave children in filth. Insulting child rearing as "dirty diapers" is spiteful and hateful for someone who is clearly proud of her own child.

"All Jews over the age of Bat or Bar Mitzvah who do not have children, or whose children are over the age of Bat or Bar Mitzvah, would be declared obligated to fulfill all time-bound commandments. A special exemption would be granted to those with serious illnesses and/or disabilities and/or suffering the ravages of age, or to those who are caring for such an individual."

Seems reasonable on the face of it... except for one problem, if you elevate time-bound Mitzvot as "higher level," you are insisting that pregnant women (walking to Shul in the third trimester is trying for women when the weather is severe), nursing mothers, etc., be on a "lower level." Since we value child rearing, we can't lower women who are fulfilling a serious Mitzvah of bringing new Jews into the world, something that only Jewish women are entrusted to do.

"2) All married couples with children under the age of Bat or Bar Mitzvah would literally share the time-bound obligations. One person of either gender would go to synagogue to pray for her/himself and as representative of the family, and that spouse would be counted in a minyan."

Right, so we're back to reducing the obligations of men to increase them for women. We've seen the results of this, Conservative Synagogues that are women's clubs that exclude men. Further, taking on the obligations by women doesn't relieve the men of there obligations, so you haven't solved a problem.

"I've never forgotten the days when I used to show up for morning minyan on a Sunday--the only day that my husband was available to take care of our then-toddler--and be told by the "minyannaires" to go home and send my husband instead. Why should helping perpetuate the Jewish people by having a baby be punishable by banishment from synagogue?"

I think you made my argument for me... by making the synagogue the center of Jewish life, mothers become "banished from the synagogue." By exempting women, there is no banishment upon bearing a child.

Them sending you away and telling you to "send your husband," is absurd. Pre-kids, my wife and I often went to different Shabbat minyanim because we liked different ones... not unheard of in Orthodox circles. When we only had one child, that was sometimes the case, I'd go early, she'd go to a later one. There was no "send your husband," because her husband already Davined. Your husband was obligated to pray, preferably with a minyan, he certainly wasn't obligated to pray with their minyan.

Tue May 05, 03:36:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"Shira, "The only reason why the system works is that Orthodox women have been raised since earliest childhood to believe that dirty diapers are their G-d-given destiny."

That's hogwash and bigoted and you are better than that."

Oy. I try to be, but I don't always succeed. Clearly, my choice of words was offensive, and I apologize. Obviously, a child's spiritual and physical well-being are both paramount parenting responsibilities.

"if you elevate time-bound Mitzvot as "higher level," you are insisting that pregnant women (walking to Shul in the third trimester is trying for women when the weather is severe), nursing mothers, etc., be on a "lower level." Since we value child rearing, we can't lower women who are fulfilling a serious Mitzvah of bringing new Jews into the world, . . . "

I hadn't thought of it quite that way. That's a good point.

"taking on the obligations by women doesn't relieve the men of there obligations, so you haven't solved a problem."

I tried to, but either I didn't express myself clearly or you missed and/or disagreed with my proposed solution: Either the woman or the man would represent the family in synagogue, so that the family *as a unit* will have fulfilled the obligation of praying in a minyan. I may be be wrong, but it seems to me that, functionally, that's what happens now--the husband goes to shul and represents his wife, reciting Kaddish for her deceased mother.

"by making the synagogue the center of Jewish life, mothers become "banished from the synagogue." By exempting women, there is no banishment upon bearing a child."

I have the same old problem every time I discuss women's exemption from time-bound prayer on my blog, namely, that some of my readers don't seem to understand that, for some women, the fact that halachah/Jewish religious law doesn't require women to participate in group prayer is irrelevant--some women go to synagogue because we find it meaningful and enjoyable. Being told to stay home with my kid until he was six years old and could sit still, as happened to me, *did* feel like a punishment. Exemption has nothing to do with this. Exclusion is the issue. Again, no one told *my husband* to stay home. You can argue halachah 'til you're blue in the face, but no amount of halachic reasoning is ever going to make me feel any better about having been asked by my fellow and sister congregants to go home and stay there.

Tue May 05, 07:02:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

Right, so we're back to reducing the obligations of men to increase them for women. We've seen the results of this,I think that historically, in the C movement, you have the causality reversed.

In the C community I grew up in the late 60s and early 70s almost no one went to weekday minyan. So the wives in the community saw that their husbands got certain privileges without seeing them bear any extra obligations. Once the requirement of thrice daily prayer was thrown off by the men, they were de facto on the same level of obligation as the women. At that point the argument for gender equality with respect to prayer was effectively unaswerable.

In the O community I live in today, many women consciously accept that in exchange for not leading the services, layning the torah reading, etc. they don't have to get up at 6AM Monday morning to go to shul for minyan and then come back and help their spouses get the kids ready for school before leaving for work themselves. Differences in privileges are balanced by differences in obligation.

That isn't to say the O model is necessarily fair - as is common in O, your set of paired responsibilities and privileges are assigned to you rather than being something you can choose. But it certainly explains why the original C implementation of unequal privilege and equal effective obligation was doomed to change somehow.

Wed May 06, 09:27:00 AM 2009  
Anonymous Al said...

Shira, thanks for acknowledging the poor wording, very big of you to acknowledge offense and not get defensive.

You wrote, "Being told to stay home with my kid until he was six years old and could sit still, as happened to me, *did* feel like a punishment."

This is not a problem with Halacha, this is a problem with you belonging to a crappy synagogue, which you've acknowledged. The trend towards families having a full-time Nanny, including over Shabbat, seems counter-productive towards Shabbat as family time (which I highly value), and problematic from the idea of giving your servants Shabbat off, even if we've Halachically maneuvered around the clear wording of Torah.

Our local Shul has babysitting starting at age 2... for the older VERY modern crowd that started the Shul and generally moved into the neighborhood with families (maybe had one kid while here), that was sufficient.

For families that moved in and started families here, that essentially keeps women from attending Shul... At Aish, we had babysitting for a while in a small room, and people could leave kids of all ages, it's also an informal place where nobody complained about a baby in a stroller next to mom... in the more formal Shul, strollers were prohibited.

Including mothers of young children requires capital improvements and cultural acceptance, a women's section (have a separate one for mothers of young children plus a normal one) with room to roll a stroller in with a small child, and somewhere where a woman can modestly nurse a child if needed, plus babysitting for older children will let women participate.

It's much easier to hide behind Halacha and be lazy, but woman that want to join communal services should be able to, not be banished.

You wrote, "Either the woman or the man would represent the family in synagogue, so that the family *as a unit* will have fulfilled the obligation of praying in a minyan."

You're not expressing yourself poorly, perhaps I am.

Status Quo:
1. Man obligated to pray, prays on his behalf and on his family
2. Woman obligated to pray, but not obligated with a woman, prays on her behalf plus for her family (lots of older Yiddish prayers for woman to stay on behalf of their family, they are in the Women's Siddur by Art Scroll, my wife says them after lighting candles)

Currently, the man is obligated to participate in the minyan, whether married or not. The woman is not obligated to participate in a minyan. She may or may not.

Your proposal: either is sufficient, not both. This reduces that man's obligation. Requiring both, a la partnership minyanim, works for singles and DINK families, but doesn't satisfy young families. For young families, the mother's participation requires physical accommodations that Shuls tend to ignore... mostly because there isn't a clamoring for inclusion by the women with small children. Further, the power structure in a Shul is a function of wealth and time (time to go to pointless committee meetings), which is biased towards older, wealthier couples (wealth increases with age, as does income to a point, ability of either spouse sitting in pointless meetings is a function of high income, not needing a second income or having domestic help or both), who are less likely to have small children.

None of this is a function of halacha, just a function of practical economics. So the tired overwhelmed mothers, either from parenting small children all day every day, or working plus dealing with their children, aren't clamoring for inclusion is large numbers, and by the time they gain the power to do something, they are removed from the small children phase and figure what worked for them works for current mothers.

Larry wrote, "Once the requirement of thrice daily prayer was thrown off by the men, they were de facto on the same level of obligation as the women. At that point the argument for gender equality with respect to prayer was effectively unaswerable."

I'll go a step further, once the requirement of thrice daily prayer was thrown off, the synagogue became a place to go on Shabbat, when people weren't rushing to get to work. Once that happened, the service stretched in length, and became a social outlet, and halachic obligations of prayer became theoretical, not practical.

Wed May 06, 01:34:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Larry Lennhoff said...

I'll go a step further, once the requirement of thrice daily prayer was thrown off, the synagogue became a place to go on Shabbat, when people weren't rushing to get to work. Once that happened, the service stretched in length, and became a social outlet, Different rant, but pretty much correct. In particular, in my experience the C shabbat service/kiddish is so long because once it is over so, generally, is Shabbat. So all the things that in O get spread out over the whole day (prayer, torah reading, torah study, singing, eating, and socializing) have to be compressed into the service and the kiddush.

Wed May 06, 02:24:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"n the C community I grew up in the late 60s and early 70s almost no one went to weekday minyan. So the wives in the community saw that their husbands got certain privileges without seeing them bear any extra obligations. Once the requirement of thrice daily prayer was thrown off by the men, they were de facto on the same level of obligation as the women. At that point the argument for gender equality with respect to prayer was effectively unaswerable."

I think there's a lot of truth to that, Larry. I grew up Conservative in the 50's and 60's. My father often attended morning minyan, but certainly didn't pray three times day.

This is certainly one of the least ideological explanations of the growth of egalitarian worship that I've read.

"In the O community I live in today, many women consciously accept that in exchange for not leading the services, layning the torah reading, etc. they don't have to get up at 6AM Monday morning to go to shul for minyan and then come back and help their spouses get the kids ready for school before leaving for work themselves. Differences in privileges are balanced by differences in obligation."

That's been discussed among the women in my office's Women's Tehillim (Psalms) Group. They're very glad that they can pray what they want when they want, to a certain extent. Mind you, some of my Orthodox female co-workers pray the Shacharit (Morning) Service on the subway on the way to work, others say Minchah (Afternoon Service) daily, and some say both, so they do take the obligations that their communities consider binding on women very seriously.

"For young families, the mother's participation requires physical accommodations that Shuls tend to ignore...

None of this is a function of halacha, just a function of practical economics. So the tired overwhelmed mothers, either from parenting small children all day every day, or working plus dealing with their children, aren't clamoring for inclusion is large numbers, and by the time they gain the power to do something, they are removed from the small children phase and figure what worked for them works for current mothers."

Al, that sounds quite plausible.

To be continue--this comment is way too already.

Wed May 06, 11:36:00 PM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"'I'll go a step further, once the requirement of thrice daily prayer was thrown off, the synagogue became a place to go on Shabbat, when people weren't rushing to get to work. Once that happened, the service stretched in length, and became a social outlet,' Different rant, but pretty much correct. In particular, in my experience the C shabbat service/kiddish is so long because once it is over so, generally, is Shabbat. So all the things that in O get spread out over the whole day (prayer, torah reading, torah study, singing, eating, and socializing) have to be compressed into the service and the kiddush."

Al and Larry, not only have you just described my experience as a lifelong Conservative Jew, you've also explained why some Conservative woman get so upset about feeling excluded--to put a feminine spin on an old joke, we're in synagogue not only to talk to G-d, but also to talk to Malka. (In the traditional version that I've heard, some men go to shul to talk to G-d, others go to talk to Moish.) When my son was very young, many folks asked why I didn't stay home, since I spent most of my time out in the lobby with the boychik anyway, and my answer was that I didn't want to miss the kiddush. Synagogue is often a major social scene for non-Orthodox Jews, because many of us don't seem to have maintained the tradition of hachnasat orim, inviting guests. My parents, both employed outside the home, rarely invited guests except on Rosh HaShanah, Chanukah, and Pesach. I've found the same to be true now of most of my friends (and myself). All of the socializing that the frummies do over Shabbat dinner and lunch, we do at a Friday night Oneg Shabbat after the 8 PM service, or at kiddush after Saturday moroning services.

Thu May 07, 12:03:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"moroning"?!

This moron stayed up way past her bedtime, obviously.

Thu May 07, 10:24:00 AM 2009  
Anonymous Al said...

Shira wrote, "When my son was very young, many folks asked why I didn't stay home, since I spent most of my time out in the lobby with the boychik anyway, and my answer was that I didn't want to miss the kiddush."

Growing up Reform, you went to Temple ON TIME, and left went to Kiddush when the Rabbi told you to, it was very clean and organized. Rolling in late, doing your thing, etc. was HUGE culture shock for me.

For my wife, who grew up practicing Conservative, was used to showing up for the Torah Service with her mother and staying around for Kiddush, which was normal for her. What was culture shock for her was the women who showed up for Kiddush... some would get there with 10 minutes left in the service, wait outside (either in the lobby at the big Shul, or outside at the small Shul), chatting with the other women and then going in for Kiddush.

You paint all us Orthodox Jews as this theologically uniform group dedicated to observance... there are certainly a bunch of dedicated "true believers" in the community, but a lot of Orthodox Jews are culturally Orthodox... the guys roll into Shul at 10/10:30, Davin Shachrit during the Torah Service, head to Kiddush club for a bit, and maybe rejoin for Musaf (or just hang out), and stay for Kiddush.

After Kiddush, it's off to someone's house (or theirs with guests) for lunch, then a nap, some playing with their kids (or a Shiur), then going home to finish the day, or Mincha/Maariv to avoid the Witching Hour at home, then Saturday night out for the childless or those with babysitters, or a quiet night at home once the kids are asleep.

It's a wonderful relaxing day, but talking to Hashem is a VERY small part of it. Remember, Shabbat was Hashem's gift to the Jewish people, not a burden... the burden aspect comes from the Rabbis and magnified by the Yeshiva world... if you toil for 6 days, Shabbat is relaxation, if you are in Kollel/Yeshiva all week, Shabbat needs a lot more structure to make it different.

The Conservative movement lost Shabbat relaxation, so made the service stretch to 3.5-4 hours with the abomination that is the dairy Kiddush... :) There is plenty of socializing in Orthodox communities, it's just Kiddush for 30 minutes - an hour plus guests at home... not 2 hours of Kiddush at Shul deciding what restaurant to go to afterwards (my wife's family used to go to a diner after Shul every week).

Thu May 07, 11:25:00 AM 2009  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Al, you said, "You paint all us Orthodox Jews as this theologically uniform group dedicated to observance... there are certainly a bunch of dedicated "true believers" in the community, but a lot of Orthodox Jews are culturally Orthodox..."

Guilty as charged. :) In my defense, it seems to me that that's the way the Orthodox community wishes to be seen, officially. I don't see too many rabbis bragging that their congregants shlep into shul whenever they want and skip Musaf in favor of the Kiddush Club, of all things.

"The Conservative movement lost Shabbat relaxation, so made the service stretch to 3.5-4 hours . . .

True.

" . . . with the abomination that is the dairy Kiddush... :)"

Nu, why are the frummies all obsessed with eating meat on Shabbos and Yom Tov? Dairy desserts are better anyway. :)

There is plenty of socializing in Orthodox communities, it's just Kiddush for 30 minutes - an hour plus guests at home...

We non-Orthos, myself included, have largely gotten out of the hachnasat orchim/welcoming guests habit. It's our loss.

". . . not 2 hours of Kiddush at Shul deciding what restaurant to go to afterwards . . . "

Oy, been there and literally done that--when I was in my mid-twenties, I was part of a group that went out to a coffee shop for lunch every Shabbat/Sabbath after the morning services. It's been years since I went out to a restaurant after morning services on Shabbat.

Sat May 09, 11:54:00 PM 2009  
Anonymous Al said...

Shira, "Guilty as charged. :) In my defense, it seems to me that that's the way the Orthodox community wishes to be seen, officially. I don't see too many rabbis bragging that their congregants shlep into shul whenever they want and skip Musaf in favor of the Kiddush Club, of all things."

True... and most Reform Rabbis will talk about their commitment to individual practice and talk about their Bar Mitzvah program... not that most of their members are there twice a year when their kids are in Hebrew School until Bar Mitzvah, and that they love their Reform Temple because their non-Jewish wife is comfortable there. :)

Most Conservative Rabbis will talk about their open minded program and inclusion and preservation of American Jewry, and their 2-3 "egalitarian success stories" of the girls from their community that are now a Rabbi or Canter, not the utter lack of observance of their congregation, or the dying congregation because as their members get older, there aren't young people to replace them.

You're familiar with the Conservative absurdity and pitifulness... we're all Jews (well, mostly Jews at least, with the patrilineal nonsense in Reform, they certainly aren't all Jews), we're the same people, regardless of observance.

Mon May 11, 10:56:00 AM 2009  

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